Kevin Durant
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
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THe idea of giving lebron losing finals mvp after ring chasing is ridiculous. stuff like that should be for pistol pete types, who suffer bad teams for years and put up huge numbers without help. Lebron has more help than anyone ever has, even if everyone is injured, he gets a ton of help from the refs. I hope we get to enjoy that for the next 4 years.


Case closed. You're really not being objective about this. Like when BOTH Kyrie and Love were injured in the Finals?

Or that he actually beat the Warriors once?

His team vs. the Warriors (with KD) is so vastly under-equipped it's not even funny.


They give LeBron "full credit" for beating the Warriors, and they neglect Steph being injured, Bogut getting hurt, and Draymond getting suspended.

But they do not miss an opportunity to talk about what LeBron didn't have the first time around.

Here's how it is

LeBron didn't have Love and had Kyrie for game 1 and then not after that
The Warriors won in 6

Steph was injured, Bogut got hurt, and Draymond got Suspended
The Cavs won in 7.

The next time around both teams were healthy

It was Steph, Klay and Durant vs Kyrie, Love and LeBron.

The Warriors won in 5. Fair and Square, no injuries, no excuses.

It's because of LeBron that Kyrie wanted out on the Cavs after that.

They made it to the Finals anyway, and faced up against the Warriors

This time without Kyrie, the Warriors swept them.


And ONCE AGAIN, you can make the argument that no matter how much people try to argue "Yeah but Durant with to a blah blah team."

You'd have a hard time arguing that if you replace Durant with Harriron Barnes again, that they repeat as Champions.

Steph hasn't returned to the supernova form he had that 73-9 season since his injury, and Draymond hasn't been a near 40% three point shooter since that point either, both of those things would need to happen again to quantify.

But they haven't, and it's hard to argue that the Warriors are repeat Champions right now without Durant being there, and THAT should be the factor.


Do the Warriors win back to back titles with Barnes there instead of Durant these past few seasons? No? Then case closed.


Lol. There’s a reason why Kd joined the already stacked warriors.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:17 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
activeverb wrote:
^
Durant's situation is unique. He joined a team that had won a ring two years before. And then he won two rings with the same group of stars who had succeeded without him.

Because of that, some people will always discount his rings a little. Whether or not that's reasonable is in the eye of the beholder.

I don't think this has anything to do with any other player; as I said, Durant's situation is unique.

I can't think of another superstar who joined a team that were recent champions. The closest would be when Moses Malone joined the 76ers the year after they were in the finals. Because the 76ers hadn't won, Moses was seen as the missing piece. The Warriors really didn't have a missing piece. The simply added another amazing piece to an already amazing team, and they walloped everyone.


But would they have continued to without him, is the question.


I have no idea. My crystal ball is on the fritz
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:07 am    Post subject:

If only you look at Durant's career averages and the fact that he has 2 rings and 2 finals MVPs, you could argue he may be just barely in the top 10 of all time. His career scoring average of 27.1 is fifth all time, and 0.03 points below Lebron. He's also averaged 7 rebounds a game, been super efficient and has averaged about 5 assists a game the last several years. That stacks up pretty well with the guys who rank 5-10 on the all time list.

But I really believe that numbers like that don't tell the whole story sometimes. Durant doesn't go off as much as you'd expect a guy like him to. He has "only" 5 50+ point games in his career so far. To put that in perspective, Lebron has 11, Kobe had 25, Jordan had 31 and Kareem had 10. It would seem a guy like Durant who's been in the league for 11 years would have at least 10 of those games by now.

He's only had one 50+ point game, and five 40+ point games (compared to 51 overall) since going to GSW. With the talent he's playing with, or for that matter, the talent he'd be playing with if he came here next summer, I'm not sure if we can expect him to have more than one or two more 50 point games the rest of his career.

To me, the lack of 40+ and 50+ point games compared to some of the top 10 greats of all time makes it hard to put him that high.

He's so smooth and seems to do what he does so effortlessly that in a weird way he doesn't seem as dominant as the other all-time greats.

However, if Durant keeps playing at this level for like 3-5 more years and wins at least one more ring (especially if it's this year) he may break in. He's always been one of my favorite players.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:18 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:

To me, the lack of 40+ and 50+ point games compared to some of the top 10 greats of all time makes it hard to put him that high. .


I wouldn't consider that a big deal myself. I've just looked at this superficially, but it seems the 50 point games tend to be clustered when guys had bad teammates and bad teams -- so it's more a function of need/opportunity, then some intrinsic statement of ability.

And, really, is Durant's 5 50-point games in 770 career games that much different than Lebron's 11 in 1140 career games? I don't think so.

Durant has the 5th best scoring average in NBA history, so to me he stands up as a scorer with anyone.

Oh, and plenty of guys on the GOAT short list didn't have a lot of 50 point games: Bird 4, Shaq 3, Hakeem 2, Oscar 2, Russell 0.

If you made 50 point games the criteria, the top 10 list of all time would include Rick Barry, Allen Iverson, Bernard King, and James Harden.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:22 am    Post subject:

Kevin Durant is soft. He'd make a good side-kick to LeBron, but he is in no way equipped to lead a team. I hope Klay joins us in the off-season because I want KD on those Warriors when we eventually smash them.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject:

Klay isn’t going anywhere
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:14 am    Post subject:

I don't think Klay is coming back to LA either. I think he wants to build his own legacy aside from his father. I think he is fine with being a lower key star on the Warriors.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:32 am    Post subject:

^
Only reason Klay leaves is money. It will be interesting to see how much the Warriors will pay, and whether he will take less than he can get on the open market.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:04 pm    Post subject:

If not Klay, then AD and/or Kawhi over KD. KD should be the last resort if the other top tier players aren't coming. Would be awesome to see the Lakers take out the Warriors (with KD still there) then the Celtics on the way to a title.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:24 pm    Post subject:

BadGuy wrote:
If not Klay, then AD and/or Kawhi over KD. KD should be the last resort if the other top tier players aren't coming. Would be awesome to see the Lakers take out the Warriors (with KD still there) then the Celtics on the way to a title.

This. If we ever take out the Warriors, I want KD and Klay to still be playing for the Warriors so that no one can make any excuses.

Besides, if the Warriors at least reach the finals, and especially if they win the title I can't imagine either guy wanting to leave.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:14 pm    Post subject:

Like Hollywood helping to draw Lebron, Silicon Valley is supposed to help the Warriors keep KD (according to Mychal Thompson). He believes that KD is looking toward his post-NBA career.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:27 pm    Post subject:

You anti-Durant people are delusional and myopic.

Durant is an absolute stud and one hell of an all time basketball body.

You are almost as bad a the Lebron haters.

Truth is, I think most of you, had you actually been around when the Lakers signed Wilt or Kareem would have been dissing them in much the same way.

A ring talks and BS walks!! Winning is the zenith of this sport and Durant is winning. I would take him on the Lakers above all other players in the league. Could you imagine him paired with Lebron!!! WOW!!

Anyhow, I could care less about all you midgets disrespecting his game and his legacy. All any of you will be is a humorous speck on the news horizon when they talk about the idiots who used to call Durant out.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject:

these things get personal so quickly....

KD is good, numbers are good, but this is also the "age of numbers". the league is currently very different than all these past era guys. greatness ranked is not about 30.1>29.4>27.3

Anyone who is "trying" to get target numbers in any sense should be taken down notches in the rankings. Harden, Westbrook. Lebron and Durant also go down a few notches by the way they switched their teams. You have to factor in all these things about how easy it is for players now to switch teams, or the huge salaries and popularity. These things can't be ignored, but everyone keeps turning to those tenths and hundredths of the decimal points like that means anything. These guys have so much money that they are all silicon valley investors and stuff, that gets factored in. Back in the early days, hall of fame players had to get crap jobs after their careers were done. Ive heard the stories first hand from these players talking about the things they did. SOme were astute and started business that did pretty well. But these are not like these venture capitalist stuff, I'm talking about construction pipe manufacturing services and stuff. They weren't sitting around with a custom chef, and million dollar training facilities in their homes.

And all the crazy differences like no hand check! everyone knows this of course, but no one seems to factor it in their rankings! all these curry types would be VERY different with a hand check. It's gonna get worse now as i just heard the nba is even more tightening the rules on touching the small guys running around. THey just ruled Hardens obvious travel move legal, ffs. It's like the NBA is freaking out and pandering to these stars.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:48 pm    Post subject:

Wino wrote:
You anti-Durant people are delusional and myopic.

Durant is an absolute stud and one hell of an all time basketball body.

You are almost as bad a the Lebron haters.

Truth is, I think most of you, had you actually been around when the Lakers signed Wilt or Kareem would have been dissing them in much the same way.

A ring talks and BS walks!! Winning is the zenith of this sport and Durant is winning. I would take him on the Lakers above all other players in the league. Could you imagine him paired with Lebron!!! WOW!!

Anyhow, I could care less about all you midgets disrespecting his game and his legacy. All any of you will be is a humorous speck on the news horizon when they talk about the idiots who used to call Durant out.


I would gladly welcome him to the Lakers. That being said his joining the Warriors will always be a big point of contention.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:56 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Wino wrote:
You anti-Durant people are delusional and myopic.

Durant is an absolute stud and one hell of an all time basketball body.

You are almost as bad a the Lebron haters.

Truth is, I think most of you, had you actually been around when the Lakers signed Wilt or Kareem would have been dissing them in much the same way.

A ring talks and BS walks!! Winning is the zenith of this sport and Durant is winning. I would take him on the Lakers above all other players in the league. Could you imagine him paired with Lebron!!! WOW!!

Anyhow, I could care less about all you midgets disrespecting his game and his legacy. All any of you will be is a humorous speck on the news horizon when they talk about the idiots who used to call Durant out.


I would gladly welcome him to the Lakers. That being said his joining the Warriors will always be a big point of contention.


It is ONE THING to not like him joining GS but anyone who thinks he is not a great player because of it, are simply delusional and wrong. The man is one of the all time greats.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:33 am    Post subject:

Wino wrote:

It is ONE THING to not like him joining GS but anyone who thinks he is not a great player because of it, are simply delusional and wrong. The man is one of the all time greats.


Where he at now Wino? Who still ahead of him in the all-time pantheon?
Multi NBA finals MVP
Multi scoring champ
MVP
DPOY candidate

Passed Hakeem or Shaq yet?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:29 am    Post subject:

Wino wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Wino wrote:
You anti-Durant people are delusional and myopic.

Durant is an absolute stud and one hell of an all time basketball body.

You are almost as bad a the Lebron haters.

Truth is, I think most of you, had you actually been around when the Lakers signed Wilt or Kareem would have been dissing them in much the same way.

A ring talks and BS walks!! Winning is the zenith of this sport and Durant is winning. I would take him on the Lakers above all other players in the league. Could you imagine him paired with Lebron!!! WOW!!

Anyhow, I could care less about all you midgets disrespecting his game and his legacy. All any of you will be is a humorous speck on the news horizon when they talk about the idiots who used to call Durant out.


I would gladly welcome him to the Lakers. That being said his joining the Warriors will always be a big point of contention.


It is ONE THING to not like him joining GS but anyone who thinks he is not a great player because of it, are simply delusional and wrong. The man is one of the all time greats.


Oh no doubt. He's phenomenal. And personally I've liked him since he was a rookie, but I do think the whole joining the Warriors angle will bring him down a peg, fair or not.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:37 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Wino wrote:

It is ONE THING to not like him joining GS but anyone who thinks he is not a great player because of it, are simply delusional and wrong. The man is one of the all time greats.


Where he at now Wino? Who still ahead of him in the all-time pantheon?
Multi NBA finals MVP
Multi scoring champ
MVP
DPOY candidate

Passed Hakeem or Shaq yet?


Durant will never surpass Hakeem or Shaq.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:05 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
governator wrote:
Wino wrote:

It is ONE THING to not like him joining GS but anyone who thinks he is not a great player because of it, are simply delusional and wrong. The man is one of the all time greats.


Where he at now Wino? Who still ahead of him in the all-time pantheon?
Multi NBA finals MVP
Multi scoring champ
MVP
DPOY candidate

Passed Hakeem or Shaq yet?


Durant will never surpass Hakeem or Shaq.

If you're talking about playing at an upper-echelon level, Durant has been doing it for 9-10 years. The only years Hakeem was dominant was around 1993-1996. To me that's what hurts Hakeem in these debates.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:43 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
governator wrote:
Wino wrote:

It is ONE THING to not like him joining GS but anyone who thinks he is not a great player because of it, are simply delusional and wrong. The man is one of the all time greats.


Where he at now Wino? Who still ahead of him in the all-time pantheon?
Multi NBA finals MVP
Multi scoring champ
MVP
DPOY candidate

Passed Hakeem or Shaq yet?


Durant will never surpass Hakeem or Shaq.

If you're talking about playing at an upper-echelon level, Durant has been doing it for 9-10 years. The only years Hakeem was dominant was around 1993-1996. To me that's what hurts Hakeem in these debates.


C'mon, Hakeem was "upper echelon" and dominant in plenty of other years. In 89 and 90, for example, he averaged 24-14 (leading the league in rebounding both years), while averaging 3.4 and 4.6 blocks.

What hurts Hakeem is (1) his greatest strength was defense, and most fans don't care about defense and (2) he spent a lot of his career on mediocre teams with lousy teammates.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:56 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:

DPOY candidate



Durant is a good defender, but that's going overboard.

Durant has never made an all-defensive first or second team.

Last year he finished a distant 9th in DPoY voting.

According to voting for the two awards, Durant was the 5th to 7th best defensive forward in the league last year.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
governator wrote:
Wino wrote:

It is ONE THING to not like him joining GS but anyone who thinks he is not a great player because of it, are simply delusional and wrong. The man is one of the all time greats.


Where he at now Wino? Who still ahead of him in the all-time pantheon?
Multi NBA finals MVP
Multi scoring champ
MVP
DPOY candidate

Passed Hakeem or Shaq yet?


Durant will never surpass Hakeem or Shaq.

If you're talking about playing at an upper-echelon level, Durant has been doing it for 9-10 years. The only years Hakeem was dominant was around 1993-1996. To me that's what hurts Hakeem in these debates.


C'mon, Hakeem was "upper echelon" and dominant in plenty of other years. In 89 and 90, for example, he averaged 24-14 (leading the league in rebounding both years), while averaging 3.4 and 4.6 blocks.

What hurts Hakeem is (1) his greatest strength was defense, and most fans don't care about defense and (2) he spent a lot of his career on mediocre teams with lousy teammates.

I don't know if I'd really consider 24-14 dominant, although it's really close. To me you've gotta score at least 25 a game while grabbing double digit rebounds and protecting the rim. I used to shudder when Dwight Howard was averaging 20-22 points and people called him "dominant". That's a superlative that we shouldn't loosely throw around.

Even if you count those two years as dominant, he was at that level for only 6 years. Shaq, Wilt and Kareem played at that level for much longer.
Durant has been getting 25-30 a game since his 2nd year, which means he's played at that level for pretty much a full decade non-stop.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of how Hakeem played. I started watching basketball as a little kid when Hakeem was dominant in the mid 90s, so he made an impression on me as far as how a dominant center should play.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:57 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:

I don't know if I'd really consider 24-14 dominant, although it's really close. To me you've gotta score at least 25 a game while grabbing double digit rebounds and protecting the rim. .


But now you're just tossing out arbitrary numbers. I don't get why Hakeem would have been dominant if he had averaged 25.0 instead of the 24.8 and 24.3 he did those two seasons. But I do get that, like a lot of people, you primarily see dominance as a matter of scoring above other parts of the game.

Anyway, I'd call Shaq and Hakeem equal, and wouldn't quibble with anyone who ranked one above the other. Very different games, and different pros and cons, but when I look at everything I don't see a good case for ranking one above the other.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:25 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:

I don't know if I'd really consider 24-14 dominant, although it's really close. To me you've gotta score at least 25 a game while grabbing double digit rebounds and protecting the rim. .


But now you're just tossing out arbitrary numbers. I don't get why Hakeem would have been dominant if he had averaged 25.0 instead of the 24.8 and 24.3 he did those two seasons. But I do get that, like a lot of people, you primarily see dominance as a matter of scoring above other parts of the game.

Anyway, I'd call Shaq and Hakeem equal, and wouldn't quibble with anyone who ranked one above the other. Very different games, and different pros and cons, but when I look at everything I don't see a good case for ranking one above the other.

I hear you when you say 25 points a game is an arbitrary qualification for being dominant on offense. But like I said, even if you consider those two seasons you mentioned dominant, Hakeem still only had about 6 truly dominant seasons, while Shaq, Kareem and Wilt were dominant for at least a decade straight.

When we have these debates about who ranked where, I personally look at their resume rather than simply how good they were in their prime. Some guys had a very short prime (like Bernard King for example), while others had a prime that lasted about a decade. The latter helps your case big time in these debates.

For the rest of Hakeem's career until 1997, he averaged between 21-23.5 points, while his rebounding and blocked shot numbers were about the same. Do you consider 21-23 points, 11-12 rebounds and 3 blocks truly dominant?

On the other hand, Shaq averaged no less than 26 points and 10.7 rebounds from 1993-2003. Even when he had that ab strain in the late 90s or that arthritic big toe in 2002 and 2003, he still put up those numbers. So to me Shaq clearly has the edge.

A more interesting debate would be who was better at their respective best (relatively speaking) - Shaq or Hakeem?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:


On the other hand, Shaq averaged no less than 26 points and 10.7 rebounds from 1993-2003.


Just a tip: If you want to make a stats argument, don't use odd, cherrypicked numbers like 10.7 rebounds per game that isn't a standard that anyone uses for anything.

Rather than being impressive, it just makes it look like you need to really twist the numbers to make them come out in your favor.
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